Selected messages from The Cryonics Institute Yahoo Group Forum,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cryonics_Institute/

From Christine Gaspar:

First of all, this is one of the most blantant examples of fraud that I have seen you post. "We invest" literally states that you have invested in talented entrepreneurs...and what successful cryonics- driven companies have you invested in, exactly? Which early stage companies have you supported? What expertise and network of resources do you have exactly...how have you contributed to the success of emerging cryonics driven companies? Who exactly are you kidding here? I suggest that if you go around claiming that you are not committing fraud, that you provide an explanation to these questions. As well, you still have links on your site www.nanoaging.com to "cryoprize"

From: The NanoAging Institute <jonano@gmail.com>

Ben Best writes:

Since posting my warning label about Jonathan Despres I have held my tongue. I believe that Jon is dangerously naive and has the potential to create a financial, legal and media disaster that could be nearly as harmful to cryonics as the Ted Williams affair. Also, I have received forwarding of mail from Rev Daniel Izzo of the "Cryonic Life Insurance Company" who wants to sell ice burial plots in Thule, Greenland as "natural cryonics". This guy is as crazy as they come -- probably the way cryonicists appear to many people.

Jon

As President of the Cryonics Institute (CI) I hereby post public warning that CI does not have an agreement with Jon Despres for cryonics services to a "CryoQuebec" (aka JD). Nor is there any possibility of an agreement in the future unless Jon shows a radical improvement in his judgment and actions

$5,000 cannot pay for any SA Standby and Transport. There is a mandatory completion fee of $30,000 ($25,000 for locals in South Florida), which can be paid for through insurance. The minimum deployment (72-hours) for Standby is $7,500 ($4,500 for locals in South Florida). A deployment cannot be made if funding is not in place for the completion fee.

As a personal statement (not speaking for CI) I warn everyone not to send any money to Jon for any of his so-called organizations (CryoPrize, NanoAging Institute, CryoQuebec,...) -- and do not lend credence to his activities by allowing use of your name on any of his "Boards".

I do appreciate that Jon is sincere and enthusiastic. I even appreciate his initiative and his goals. But although his goals are noble, I believe he is poisoning the well with his projects, and may make future (credible) projects of a similar nature more difficult. This is especially the case if naive people of note agree to be figureheads on his Boards and if uninformed people send money to those organizations.

It is not my intention to hurt Jon's feelings and I dearly wish I knew a means by which his enthusiasm could become constructive. But for now he reminds me of a child who has just learned to ride a tricycle and who is piloting a bomb-laden B52 over a major metropolitan area.

Ben Best

So what, should I remove my projects called CryoQuebec and CryoPrize ?

I wanted to attract customers in cryonics with TV ads; my friends and me are preparing a TV ad that will appear on my TV. You treat me as I would be naive and a robber, I’m not a robber, a thief Why people would not want to give me money, because I’m young, I WANT TO HELP THE CRYONICS COMMUNITY

Jon

From: Flavonoid@bonbon.net

I see the web page for CryoQuebec advertises unspecified services for $55,000 CDN. Jonano says in a recent message that this includes services from CI and from SA. Has he bothered to gain CI's approval to be their representative in Quebec? It doesn't exactly sound to me like he has CI's President's approval, much less any contract with CI. Has he bothered to contract with SA for services in Quebec for $5,000 US? What services are included and where is the evidence that SA agrees to this? Oh well. He dismissed my posting about not-for-profit organization, with silence. No doubt he will go blissfully on his way after reading this one, as well. Hopefully this is not the sole source of cryonics information for French Canadians.

From: The NanoAging Institute

OK I removed the Cryo Equity Partner program, I just forgot to delete it, as well as I forgot to delete the old page of the cryo prize. Now it is done, let me know if it’s ok. With the Cryo Equity Partner I wanted to attract investors from venture capitalists and team with me and invest in cryonics companies such as 21cm. Also, I have removed Cryo Prize and CryoQuebec from the NanoAging Institute web site and I will no longer build/maintain those projects.

Jon

From Ben Best:

Many cryonicists were incredibly surprised and delighted by this sudden reversal on your part, Jon. It is not only a great relief, but it gives me hope that you can make some substantial positive contributions to cryonics and to the survival of us all. You do have many positive attributes and I did not enjoy attacking you. At times I felt like the parent giving a spanking who says, "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you". But I was concerned that you could do serious damage to cryonics -- all the more so because of your talents.

I was stunned by the list of notables you managed to accumulate on your Boards. I would never have been so audacious as to even think of asking some of those people. Great things are often accomplished by the audacious (as well as great disasters). I think it showed resourcefulness and persistence on your part to ferret-out contact information for all those people and to get them to agree. Aubrey de Grey told me that he agreed only after having been asked by you numerous times.

I am also impressed by your unwavering focus on practical accomplishments.

Too many people do nothing but talk, talk, talk. I respect the importance of philosophy as much as anyone, but we can easily be suffocated by so much hot air. You often show a surprising awareness of important technical issues and an appreciation for their importance not displayed by other, more "seasoned" cryonicists.

As noted, I have been horrified by many of your hare-brained schemes which have involved so much misrepresentation and which have had such potential for disaster. To me you have been irresponsible and had terrible judgment to be making such grandiose promises involving lives and money when you have so little capacity to deliver. It is also fraudulent to be promoting organizations that are organizations in name only.

Nonetheless, many great projects begin with only an idea. Alcor began in Fred Chamberlain's trailer. Christine Gaspar dreams of a cryonics facility in Canada. If she succeeds, it will be a long time before it can deliver service comparable to that of the American organizations. It will take people believing the effort and risk is worthwhile to make this dream a reality. Similarly, I hope that you someday have the means to deliver on your dream of CryoQuebec.

It gives me hope to see that you have the capacity to admit to being wrong and to learn from your mistakes. Too many people will not admit to being wrong and cannot learn. I make mistakes all the time and have had more than my share of hare-brained ideas that I have had to discard. I respect you more and trust you more for having dropped these ill-conceived and ill-fated projects. This is by no means an endorsement of all your future schemes, but I believe that you have the capacity to make significant contributions to cryonics. And I hope that there will be times and means for me to give you support.

Ben Best

*****

Again, From Ben:

Subject: Visits to Australia and Hawaii --

One of our Members, Ron Trumble, can receive messages on this forum, but says he cannot post messages. I don't understand this, but I have agreed to post this message on his behalf.

Ron will be visiting Australia from May 28 to June 16, mainly to Sydney and then the Great Barrier Reef. He has asked me to post a message inviting any CI Members in the area to contact him, because he would like to meet them.

Ron also says that any CI Member traveling to Hawaii is welcome to visit him on Hilo (the big island), and if you get along with him he may allow you to stay in his "luxury home".

*******

Mikhail Soloviev wrote:

Dear Ben,

Could something similar to the Transfer On Death account be established in Canada?

I have spoken to a Canadian lawyer and have also spoken to an investment broker at a Canadian bank (Scotiabank) who handles RRSPs (the Canadian equivalent of IRAs).

Unlike IRAs that avoid probate, it appears that the policy of the RRSP department of Scotiabank is to put the RRSP through probate. The broker told me that the Will has priority as a legal document over the named beneficiary in the RRSP document. This may only be the policy of Scotiaband, because it appears to contradict what is on the Revenue Canada website:

Designation in RRSP contract - If the beneficiary is designated in the RRSP contract, the amounts are to be paid out to that person. If no beneficiary is named in the RRSP contract, but the estate is named, the amounts are to be paid to the estate. And, As a general rule, when an RRSP did not mature before the annuitant's death, the deceased annuitant is considered to have received, just before death, an amount equal to the fair market value of all property of the RRSP. This amount has to be included in the deceased annuitant's income.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4079/t4079-05-e.html

http://www.kawarthacu.com/retirement.html

The lawyer told me "there is no Canadian TOD concept". I don't know what would happen if a Canadian tried to set up a TOD in the United States. There is no "Texas TOD concept" and Texans are not able to establish a TOD account in another State unless they have an address in that State.

Ben

******

From: Robin Helweg-Larsen Reanimation instructions

This posting is about the issue of what instructions are left, or should be left, for eventual reanimation. The topic has been covered before, but I suggest it should be revisited periodically because our own present-day concepts about it are probably evolving all the time.

1) My instructions request no experimental reanimation, but only when it is a routine matter. I will not feel any sense of urgency.

2) My preferred physiological age will be 25, give or take 3 years.

3) As a neuro suspension, I will have options on initial body structure. I prefer to be a turn-of-the-millennium normal male human as I am now.

I see no reason to request to change my skin color or the shape of my nose at this point, though I would like built-in options for a variety of mental and physical enhancements if I should feel like them in 3 months or 3 years. I would like to re-start fresh in the Brave New World, and see it through my existing perception and memory, but I know that I will likely want to make radical adjustments fairly soon after.

4) If, for whatever reason, the choice is between 'do it on reanimation' or you're out of luck, then I would want enhanced memory and processing power. I would *not* want automatic mental or physical links or connections of any kind to any other person, no matter how standard they have become.

5) I do not want my sleep patterns altered, even if then-current medical thinking is that some periods of sleep are unnecessary. I do not want my DNA altered, even if then-current medical thinking is that some of it is "junk DNA", until I have had time to study the matter myself. I do not want to be more than 1 inch taller than I am now, even if people in general continue to become taller. I do not want to be more than 1 inch shorter than I am now, even if people in general have moved to become shorter. I do not wish to be muscled differently, other than to make sure my ankles are not as damaged as I have made them in my present life. I prefer flexibility and stamina over strength.

6) I do not want to be reanimated into a situation in which I am forced into any legal commitments or obligations before I have had a full opportunity to understand the workings of society.

That will do for a start. How do other CryoNet readers see the issue?

Robin HL

Ben Best wrote:

Yes, when someone withdraws a pre-payment this is being treated as an expense for tax purposes. We just had a $30,000 withdrawal in November, in fact.

I don't think it would be good to make pre-payments irrevocable because that would discourage people from making them. I do want to treat them a liabilities, however, and also ensure that they are easily liquidated and returned, should there ever be a "run on the bank" for some reason -- as in the case of some very adverse legal action against us. That is why all of the pre-paid money prior to March 31, 2004 (the taxed pre-pays) is now in a T-Bill account. Soon I hope to have another T-Bill account for the post-March 31, 2004 (the non-taxed, liability) prepays.

Ben

Speaking personally (not for CI), I want to voice my opposition to Dave Pizer's suggestion to sue religion over promises of immortality.

I have previously expressed the opinion that presenting "physical immortalism" as an alternative to religion is the equivalent to wearing a "Kill Me" sign. Now Dave wants a huge "Kill Me" sign with flashing neon lights that can be worn in the center of an al-Qaeda training camp. Worse, at the center of the bullseye is not Dave Pizer, but cryonics -- all of our patients, members and supporters.

Cryonics has recently avoided a brush with death at the hands of the governments of Arizona and Michigan. We are a tiny minority struggling to survive. We desperately need friends & allies, not more enemies. Our best chance of survival at this time may well be to remain unworthy of serious attention. Where would a cryonicist with a death wish look to find the fiercest potential enemies?

Do most cryonicists not know from personal experience that the most vehement opposition and hostility we face comes from people who imagine that cryonics is in conflict with God's will? Should we not make efforts to convince these potential opponents that there are no real grounds for this presumed conflict -- or at minimum not to inflame them? Does a chipmunk improve its chances of survival by attacking a bear and biting it on the leg?

There are certain experiments which prudent people do not perform. I will not drive a long nail through my head in order to study the effects. If Dave were totally dissociated from cryonics he could bear the full responsibility for his actions. But instead he presents himself as a spokesperson for cryonics, despite the fact that CryoNetters have overwhelmingly repudiated his spokesmanship. To so recklessly endanger the lives of our members and patients is criminal negligence.

Dave, if you've got money to blow on a lawsuit, why not use it for something constructive like a hospice or retirement community for cryonicists. Those were great ideas for which you had our admiration and support. I cannot think of a way to convince you that the risks of your lawsuit are great and the probability of a positive result is minuscule.

-- Ben Best, speaking for himself